Thursday, October 29, 2020

Making a 6 TPI Rip Panel Saw from a 7 TPI Crosscut Saw

This post is picture heavy and text light.

At the same garage sale that I found the Disston D-23 saw that I posted about recently, I got an unknown maker 26 inch "Warranted Superior" skew-back crosscut handsaw with 8 PPI/7 TPI.  Like the Disston, this saw had a remarkably straight plate - no kinks or bends.  As I understand it, these Warranted Superior saws could have been factory rejects from Disston or other well-known makers, sold under the WS medallion by smaller companies or hardware chains for slightly less money.  Still good saws, just not perfect.

The saw as found

Filed 8 PPI crosscut

Handle with Warranted Superior medallion

Lower horn was long ago broken off

The handle is smaller than most that I come across and it fits me very well.  Just need to fix that horn.

The handle has an "open kerf" ...

... as opposed to the D23 that had a closed kerf handle

I'm certain the open kerf was cheaper to manufacture, not only for cutting that kerf, but also for shaping the rear of the saw plate.  The D23 has a curvaceous rear end, whereas this saw has sharp angles (pics below).

The saw nuts and bolts came out without problems and I later cleaned them up with a wire wheel in the drill.

I don't know what these are made of, but they are not
attracted to the magnet sitting right in front of them

Could this misplaced hole be the reason it was a reject from a major maker?

The rear of the plate, very harsh angles ...

... as opposed to the Disston D-23 with nice curves

Here's what I did for the handle.  I didn't know what wood it was made from, but guessed (probably incorrectly) beech.  I may have made the new horn a little too long, but I can always fix that later if it feels wrong.

Scraped and sanded off old finish and grunge

Clamped a squared-up block next to the broken horn to shave it flat

Glued on a piece of beech

Drew a shape

And shaped it to blend in with the rest

Fits my hand well - note how the lower heel of my hand
(behind the pinky) fits right into the curve of the horn

I gave the handle three liberal coats (soakings) in BLO/turps and had hoped the beech might get a bit darker, but only the original wood darkened.  Hopefully with some years of use the new wood will blend in better - see pics at end.

The plate was fairly grungy.  Aside from the "8" denoting PPI at the rear of the left side, there was no etch or other marking.  This meant I didn't have to worry about obliterating anything and could sand with abandon.  After sanding, it got a citric acid bath for 3-4 hours, followed by more sanding.

As found - a lot of sanding from 120 to 400 grits got the plate much nicer

Cut off the last four inches

The plate cleaned up - can you see the detail I added?

Filed a nib into the front

Just because it makes me giggle

Right side cleaned up

This plate is about 0.033" thick and is not taper ground.  The right side had some pitting, but nothing that will affect the cutting.  I've never had a saw with a nib.  I don't know if skew back saws or panel saws had nibs, so don't know if this is historically correct.  But it makes me smile, so ...

Finally, to the teeth.  My main rip handsaw has about 4 1/2 TPI.  I have another that has about 10 TPI, but it is practically useless, other than for thin plywood.  I wanted a saw that was a little less aggressive than my main rip saw and settled on 6 TPI.  I had hoped that the existing teeth would be close enough in spacing that I wouldn't have to file them completely off, but in the end that is what I had to do.

Tooth line filed off

Using a 6 TPI template to score the new gullet locations

Here's where I decided to try something different.  Saw files are not nearly as good as they used to be, and I've noticed that the small edge facets of a file often crumble when filing.  And filing in new teeth can be very tough on them.  So I thought I'd give those small triangle corners a break and use a hacksaw to saw down to proper gullet depth.  Unfortunately, I used a wrong measurement and sawed much farther than I should have.  But the experiment was a success - the files held up much better for not having to cut steel with the corners.

Hacksawing the gullets

Beginning to file the faces

Filing almost complete and you can see how much deeper the hacksaw cuts are

Undaunted, I set the teeth with a Stanley #42 (recently refurbished)

And gave it a final light sharpening pass

And here she is

Right side glamour shot

This saw cuts fantastically well.  The deep gullets don't seem to affect the cutting, but I'm going to have to be aware that the teeth are a little vulnerable to breaking or bending right now.  Finally there is a rip panel saw in the arsenal!

17 comments:

  1. Hi Matt
    do you notice a change in the hang of the saw after you shortened it?

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    1. Ralph, I don't have enough experience using it yet to judge that. But so far it seems fine and well balanced. Really, the 4" that I cut off didn't weigh much relative to the rest of the saw, so I don't think I'll notice anything (if that's what you mean).

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  2. I recently refinished a saw handle for a neighbor and found there was quite a bit of color left in the handle once the finish was scraped off. I think the handle is beech but the mismatch is due to the leftover stain or dye.

    How did you sand the plate? You did a much nicer job on that than I did.

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    1. Hi Steve. I started with a razor blade to get the big stuff off, then went to sandpaper wrapped around a squared wooden block. 150, 220, 320, 400 grits. Then to the citric acid bath, cleaning off the residue, and then through the grits again. Sounds like a lot of work, but it's not that bad.

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  3. Yes, Warranted Superior medallions denote a "second" quality in North American saws, but in British saws its the opposite.
    As for the differences in qualities?? Never saw much, WS saws are good saws, not necessarily inferior products. But as the giant makers like Disston acquired other makers, they continued their products but labelled them WS instead of putting their logo on them. Would not want to admit that their former competitors made good saws, now don't we? :-)

    Bob

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  4. BTW, using a magnet on the hardware helps identified the screws as being brass (no attraction) or Brass plated steel (attraction). Yours are nickel plated brass. Your WS medallion seems to point to an early "Disston", using an eagle.

    Bob

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    1. I used that magnet trick in picture 7, but didn't know that they ever plated brass with nickel. When I look closer, I can see some brass color peaking out at the center of the dome shape of the screws and nuts.

      Would you be able to guess the age of the saw (+/- 20 years) based on that medallion, or based on the nickel plated brass screws?

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    2. Yes, referring back to one of my earlier post https://thevalleywoodworker.blogspot.com/2016/06/de-rusting-and-warranted-superior-saws.html. You have the Glover patent saw nuts and the roll edge medallion. 1906 is my best guess (eagle shows in catalog), 1911 the eagle is replaced by the keystone.
      Mine also had the nickel plated brass screws.

      Bob

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    3. Holy mackerel! I was thinking this saw was from the 50's or 60's. I went back are re-read your older post. Is it possible that Disston went back to the eagle medallion sometime after the keystone medallion came out? Or is it a certainty with the nickel plated brass nuts AND the eagle medallion that it's from early 1900's?

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    4. Disston brought back the eagle on some Keystone branded saws somewhere between 1932-1953. To identify it better you would need a few key measurements of medalion. Diameter, shape and size of rim rolled edge. These changes through the years. See the Disston institute for time line.

      Bob, setting up shorthly for goblins and monsters :-)

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    5. Thanks, Bob. I guess that if one wants to date a Keystone saw based on the info in the Disstonion Institute website, one would have to assume that Disston used the same medallion design on their finer saws as well as their second lines. There's a lot of information on that site - it's tough to distill it to get a firm date for this saw.

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  5. Great job. I have been contemplating project like this to get a saw short enough to fit on the lid of my dutch tool chest. Thanks so much for all the detail. I may just give it a shot now.

    Take Care,

    Chris from Florida

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    1. Hi Chris. Haven't seen your senrabc name around here much lately. If you do try this, then make sure it's not a really good saw that you're modifying - it'd be a shame to change one that is historically significant. That's why this Warranted Superior saw was a good choice. Good luck with it.

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  6. Innovative way of cutting teeth!
    Would be nice to find very thin hacksaw blades for this but not sure that exist. Maybe very thin disk of a dremel tool.
    I would personally round a bit the top of the blade where you shorten it (just for the look :) )
    I admire your patience on the path to master sharpening.

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    1. Hi Lionel. I did round over the front top corner of the saw plate, maybe just not as much as you expected. Regarding hacksaws, I know there are "junior" hacksaws that use maybe a 6" or 8" blade, but I don't have one. And I don't know if the blades are thinner than those of a regular size hack saw. Paul Sellers used a small one when he cut in new teeth on a saw - that's where I got the idea.

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  7. I have never seen such teeth shaped like this before. Great experiment. I was using the bowsaw today that has a blade called turbocut. The blade is made in Japan and you do have to cut on the pull stroke but boy does it insanely fast. I believe if I had the wider blade for ripping it would cut much faster than any western saw. I truthfully don't understand it.

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    1. Salko, I really didn't mean to have the hacksawn gullets extend that far down - if I did that right the saw would look like any other rip saw.

      I saw your post about the Japanese blade in your bow saw. Those teeth are just for cross-cutting, right? I have a Japanese saw with similar teeth. As I recall, it cut like a demon when it was new. Another downfall of those teeth is the virtual inability to resharpen them. Though I did just that two days ago using a diamond paddle (on the upper facet only) and a LOT of patience. It cuts better now, but still won't supplant my western saws.

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